Elizabeth Tobin 1854-1924

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Varney Ancestry tree - do not know how connected , but no new info: think she has got hers from me!

1854. Elizabeth Tobin was born to David Tobin & Margaret Buckley on 25/02/1854 ,baptised 12/03/1854 in Our Lady of Salette, Melior Street, godparents James & Elizabeth Murray.. No BMD entry- what about Elizabeth Taubin St Olave Mar 1855 ref 1d.40- found 2020. Also found on FMP, but no mother's maiden name given! .: seemingly far too late anyway!!

[Likely state registrations : a]Bridget, Jun 1854 St.Saviour 1d.34; this not her but a daughter, b.22/5/1854, of Michael Tobin & Julia Brisinhn? of 47 Ewer Street Southwark & b] Elizabeth Margaret Tobin 1855 Dec’, ref.1d.22.St. Saviour also not her,born 13/9/1855, reg. 24/10/1855 to Thomas Tobin & Margeret Welch of 7 Gt.Guildford St].

. James & Elizabeth Murray are in 1861C, he born Greenwich, living Queen Elizabeth St., so obviously friends, not family.

The fact that no trace can be found in 1851C of David Tobin or a likely Margaret Buckley 18mths prior to their marriage in October 1852, suggests that they both arrived in England 1851-2.

1856. Sister, Mary Tobin, born 20/04/1856, and baptised 18/05/1856 in Our Lady of Salette, Melior Street, godparents David Shea & Mary Tobin. State registration Jun 1856 , St.Olave S 1d.48-guess! as to the 48.

Speculation on this Mary Tobin, godmother : 1. She could be a sister of David Tobin who then marries 1856-1861; but no marriage south of the river in this time period. One did marry in Pancras, could not find her in 1861C under either of the 2 possible married names. A David Shea 27 ,married to Johannah, both b.Kerry, does exist, living in Islington. . : 2. The only Mary Tobin in 1861C would seem to be the 27 yr old wife of a Michael Tobin. In 1871C he[Michel] is said to come from Killarney, she from Dublin. But then in 1881C, he[ now known as Martin!] has down Kilkenney, she Dublin. Their first [ of at least 9] child was born Dec 1857, so a chance that they[as Michael Tobin & Mary Ann Dempsey?] married in Jun 1856 in Clerkenwell: they did, have cert. MT20, but his father is a Thomas Tobin, deceased, farmer- so this Michael ,~1834, is not a brother of David,~1831: he could be a first cousin!!.

1859   Brother, John Tobin, born: [registered as John Torbin, Bermondsey 1d111 Jun1859 ] Baptism?: not Salette.

1860. Sister, Mary Tobin, dies St.Olave Jun/ Sep 1860 , 1b 27 / 1d 47.

1861 Census. Eliza Tobin, aged 7, was living at 9,Victoria Cott[ages: probably Snowsfield, just south of Melior Street]], St. Olave, Southwark   Listed as Jobin!

  age  
David 28   carpenter   b. Ireland, Cork.
Margaret   27   b. Ireland, Cork
Eliza     7          b. St. Olave
John  2   b. Bermondsey.    [he dies 1863, St.Olaves]

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1863 Brother, John Tobin, dies St.Olave Sep 1d 42

1864. Sister, Margaret Tobin, born, St. Olaves, ‘Mar’, 1d.43. Does Nicola have b.c.?. No baptism in Our lady of Salette

1867. Brother, David Tobin, born,   St. Olaves, ‘Dec’, 1d.40.

1871 Census Her family are living at 18, Queen Elizabeth St [ this has been redeveloped; run parallel to the Thames ,to east of what became Tower Bridge Road]], St. John, Southwark.

  age  
Margaret Tobin 40   wife married & no occupation.  b. Kilnakle, Ireland
Margaret  9   daut.   b. St. John
David     4    son      

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This implies that father, David, is still alive, but can find no trace of him in England. He has probably just been omitted by the Censor, as Margaret is given as Wife, and not as Head. For discussion on 'Kilnakle' see page on her father David Tobin 1827.

It must be Elizabeth [aged 16/17]’s family as in 1881C a David Tobin, 14, brother, is living with her.

Elizabeth Tobin is found as a general servant, age 16, in 280, High Holborn, b. Borough. ( Borough Road is one of the census districts of St. George, Southwark). Working for a John Weede ,28 , Supper Rooms Keeper, with 3 others, obviously the staff in the 'Supper Rooms' . Have googled for a ref. to these 'rooms'- nothing found

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This whole record seems to be missing on FMP  

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Timothy Lyons, her husband

 

1876. 30/09/1876.Elizabeth Tobin, aged 21, married Timothy Lyons, wharfingers foreman, aged 23, at the Church of the Sacred Heart, Lambeth.. Both bride and groom were living in Waterloo Road, she at 137, he at 108.[ There was a pub, The Hero of Waterloo, at no. 108 from 1869 -1944 . John has found- 2013- an old map on which the spot of the pub is recorded, very close to Waterloo station entrance. opposite and just south of St Johns Church, south of France St.]. He is given as Wharfingers Foreman, his father, Stephen Lyons as laborer and her father, David Tobin, as Carpenter. Witnesses are Mary Magdalene Haynes & John Barrett. Both bride & groom could write. A Roman Catholic Wedding. The original church no longer exists.

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A wharfinger took custody of and was responsible for goods delivered to the wharf, typically had an office on the wharf or dock, and was responsible for day-to-day activities including slipways, keeping tide tables and resolving disputes

1877. Elizabeth's mother Margaret Tobin died of Cancer 30/10/1877 at 8 Black Swan Yard.. Aged 44. . Was buried in St. Patrick's Catholic Cemetery Leytonstone on 3/11/1877, the body sent from Black Swan Yard, so obviously Elizabeth & Timothy had moved in with her parents after the marriage - though, alternatively, they could have moved in with the newly weds, or, Timothy & Elizabeth moved there at her death to look after the widower David Tobin and his children, David, aged just 10, and Margaret almost 14. .!

1878 Stephen Lyons, first son, was born 4/08/1878 at 8, Black Swan Yard,Southwark. Father given as Wharf Foreman.. No baptism found, but I feel he must have been baptised somewhere: Black Swan Yard slightly nearer Our Lady, but certain no baptism there, than Dockhead Church

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Sep 1878-July 1880, the family move again, some way south, to Swan Mead.

1880 William John Lyons, son born 27/07/1880 at 1 Swan Mead, Bermondsey. Father given as Hide Sorter. Interestingly not registered for 2-3 months. No baptism found: Swan Mead about equidistant from Dockhead & Our Lady churches,but baptism certainly not at the latter: Dockhead would never allow me to search for it, but some of their records were bombed anyway in 1940

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Whimsical that he should be registered in The Leather Market sub-district & that at his birth his father was a Hide Sorter, as he grows up to work with furs and leather

Her father David Tobin, of 1 Swan Mead, died of TB in the St. Olave Union Infirmary on 26/12/1880. Aged 49. Buried at St. Patrick's Catholic Cemetery Leytonstone on 1/1/1881, body sent from Swan Mead: more evidence that the Tobin & Lyons families were living together.

1881C. Timothy Lyons, 28, clerk, living at 1 Swan Mead, Leather Market, St.Olave with his wife, Elizabeth, 2 sons, Elizabeth's young brother and a boarder. Was 'clerk' an upwards move from being a Hide Sorter in 1880?

Timothy Lyons Head Married Male 28 1853 Clerk London St Johns
Elizabeth Lyons Wife Married Female 26 1855 - London St Johns
Stephen Lyons Son Single Male 2 1879 - Bermondsey Surrey,
William J Lyons Son Single Male 9mths 1881 - Bermondsey Surrey,
David Tobin Brother In Law Single Male 14 1867 Travellers Boy St Johns Horsleydown
Patrick Pheien Boarder Single Male 32 1849 Labourer Gen Ireland

 

David Tobin was orphaned 26/12/1880, aged 13, and he has remained [since obviously there from 1877] in his sister’s household. Sister Margaret Tobin, 17, is working elsewhere as a collar ironer - from Nicola.

And in the same house is John Allen, aged 3, b. Bermondsey: is he the man Elizabeth Lyons , 1891,[ the as yet unborn daughter of Timothy] marries in 1915? - I think not.

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1882 Lilian Margaret Lyons    [As Lyons Lilian Margaret,’Dec’1882, Camberwell,1d.906 ]. No baptism for her or William in The  Sacred Heart Church Camberwell, nor in Our Lady. Maybe Dockhead, where records were bombed in WW2, although this some distance from Camberwell.

On consecutive days,

1883. 25/10/1883, Margaret Lyons, 1, dies. Suppressed Scarlet Fever , at 57 Pepler Road, Old Kent Road.. Death registered by Timothy, 26/10/1883, Camberwell, he a Commercial Clerk

1883. 26/10/1883, Stephen Lyons, 5, dies Scarlet Fever 4 days[Maligna], at 57 Pepler Road, Old Kent Road. Death registered by Timothy, 26/10/1883. Contacted Anthony Plummer at the Our Lady of Sorrows Church Peckham 18/4/2010 and no Lyons baptisms nor records of these 2 deaths there. They were both buried at St. Patrick's Catholic Leytonstone cemetery, 29/10/1883, their bodies being sent from 57 Pepler Road.

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So, wife Elizabeth has lost both parents and 2 of her 3 children in just 6 years.

1885. Helen Lyons, daughter born 27/09/1885 at 41, Stamford Street,[ this has been redeveloped] Christ Church, Surrey.. Timothy, father, given as Mercantile Clerk. Following info. from Bernard Cullen, researcher St. Georges RCC: Born 27/09/1885, baptised 25 /10/1885 Helen Lyons daughter of Timothy & Elizabeth Lyons (nee Tobin) God parents Michael Lynch & Helen Buckley at St. Georges RCC..Rev. J. Golden. Ref. V6 - 67 . . This is the only baptism for his 6 children that I have found . She was called Ellen and then Nellie in later life.

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1888 Elizabeth Mary Josephine Lyons, daughter born 24/4/1888 at 11 Goldsmith Terrace,Goldsmith Road, Peckham.. Timothy, father, given as Tram Car Conductor.. This birth registered Camberwell. Called Josephine or Josie . No baptism found . The nearest church is Our Lady of Sorrows Friary Road, to the north, but contacted Anthony Plummer there in 2010 and no baptism..

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1888. His father Stephen Lyons is admitted to St. Olave's workhouse as 'destitute', from 30/7/1888 to 17/9/1888. Has Timothy quarelled with him or is he really unable to provide for him?: he has changed jobs and houses a lot 1880-1891

1890 Father, Stephen Lyons, dies, aged 63, 1/3/1890, having been admitted to St. Olaves Unfirmary in November 1889. On his d.c. his occupation is Hide sorter .

1890. Living in 34 Kinross Street : this being the address given for sister-in-law Margaret Tobin when she marries William Rixon 12/1/1890- Nicola has m.c.

1891C.   Timothy Lyons, 39, leather warehouseman, was living at 34 Kinross Street, [this has been demolished, but was off Tanner Street] Bermondsey, with his wife, Elizabeth, & 3 children in 3 rooms, 2 other families in the house. Elizabeth's two surviving siblings, Margaret Rixon & David Tobin, were living at 10 Kinross Street , as visitors, in this census. .

Timothy Lyons Head Married Male 39 1852 Leather Warehouseman London, Bermondsey
Elizabeth Lyons Wife Married Female 37 1854 - London, Bermondsey
William Lyons Son - Male 10 1881 Scholar London, Bermondsey
Ellen Lyons Daughter - Female 6 1885 Scholar London, Southwark
Mary J Lyons Daughter - Female 3 1888 - London, Peckham

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1891 Elizabeth Lyons, daughter born 20/08/1891at 10 Block D, Peabody Buildings. Bermondsey. Timothy, father, given as Skin Warehouseman. No baptism found. Roughly equidistant from Our Lady & Dockhead.

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1892. His mother, Catherine Lyons, is admitted to St. Olaves Infirmary 4/3/1892 and remains there till 30/5/1892, reason for leaving given as 'own request'. On 10/8/1892 she is admitted to St. Olaves Workhouse, reason given as 'sons neglect', sons being listed as Michael of 12 Curlew St. and he, Timothy, & Stephen of unknown addresses. She is discharged from there on 18/8/1892. Then on 22/8/1892 she is admitted to St.Peters House, Lambeth, run by the Little Sisters of the Poor. She lives there for 10 years until her death in 1902. So, it would appear that he, Timothy, took no care of / had no contact with, her from 1892 or before, even though he would appear to have had a steady job as a leather/skin warehouseman throughout 1891 & was living in 3 rooms. On the other hand he was moving around an awful lot until he settled for 10 years in Wilds Rents from 1897. But he must have kept in contact with brother Michael, as their 2 sons, William John & Stephen Patrick, were friends c1915-1930.

1894. Timothy Lyons is in the London Electoral Roll as living 8 Black Swan Yard, Bermondsey Street, Southwark

1895. Timothy Lyons is in the London Electoral Roll as living 10 Cundall's Place, Tyers Gateway, Southwark - this off Bermondsey Street

1896. Timothy Lyons is in the London Electoral Roll as living 10 Cundall's Place, Tyers Gateway, Southwark

1897. Timothy Lyons is in the London Electoral Roll as living 14 Kipling Street, Southwark. - this runs N/S below Snowsfield. I cannot be absolutely certain this is my Timothy, but only other Timothy in Southwark in this period, 1894-1907, would seem to his 'nephew' Timothy Lyons at 17 Woolf Street, paying rent to his brother-in-law, William Osbourne [ wife Mary Lyons].

1898-1908 Timothy Lyons appears in the Electoral Roll Books at 9 Wilds Rents from 1898 until 1907-8 [these books start in 1887]. He is listed as Timothy Stephen Lyons, the first reference I have seen to his middle name.[ His b.c just says Timothy Lyons and I have not found his baptism record].

1894. Tower Bridge was opened. There is a family story, told by his grandson, Francis Lyons, to his daughter Hazel and to his granddaughter Alice Richardson, that a reward was offered for the first person to dive off the bridge on its opening day. . Can find no eviodence of any truth in this!

1901C. Timothy S Lyons, 48, dock labourer, was living at 9 Wilds Rents Bermondsey, in 4 rooms, with his wife, Elizabeth, 4 children, & her brother ; 1 other family in the house.

Timothy S Lyons Head Married Male 48 1853 Dock Labourer Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Elizabeth Lyons Wife Married Female 45 1856 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
William J Lyons Son Single Male 19 1882 General Carman Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Helen Lyons Daughter Single Female 15 1886 - Blackfriars, Surrey, England
Josephine Lyons Daughter Single Female 12 1889 - Peckham, Surrey, England
Elizabeth Lyons Daughter Single Female 9 1892 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
David Tobin Brother-In-Law Married Male 30 1871 Wharf Labourer Bermondsey, Surrey, England


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 Thus the family with 4 surviving children plus Elizabeth's brother, David Tobin, 30, once again. Odd that David Tobin is given as married: although 2 1890 marriages exist, no trace of him or his putative wife[ from BMD] in 1891C, and I think it is he, single, in 1911C, in Belmont workhouse. Any Admission & Discharge fiche/book in LMA??

1909. Only surviving son, William Lyons, marries Jessie Sullivan, a protestant, in a protestant church, north of the river. . He, Timothy, given as Warehouseman. We do not know if he attended the ceremony

It is thought that daughter-in-law Jessie had little to do with Elizabeth after the marriage[ family lore, from Hilda Lyons,1910, has it that Elizabeth drank with women friends in The Dun Cow pub; whereas Timothy is remembered as 'a nice old gentleman'] But William did take his children to worship at the Church of the English Martyrs, Walworth, where they remembered praying for the souls of their grandparents, Timothy & Elizabeth, after their deaths in late 1923, early 1924. .

1909. Timothy Lyons moves to 3, Marcia Road [ last entry at 9 Wilds Rents is 1908 - electoral registers/roll books ].

1911C. Timothy S. Lyons, 59, General Labourer, Wharf Dock Worker, with Elizabeth, 57, married 32 yrs, 6 children, 2 died, and Josephine Lyons, 23, Milliner, was living in 4 rooms at 3, Marcia Road., Old Kent Road. . His other 2 daughters,.Elizabeth A. Lyons,19, housemaid, and Ellen Lyons , 24, barmaid, were living at a Mrs Page's licensed Victuallers, The Pineapple Public House , 7 St George's Road S E, in the whole house, 8 rooms

Her younger brother, David Tobin, 43, single, packer & sorter, was in the Belmont Workhouse, Brighton Road, Sutton.

Timothy S Lyons Head Married Male 59 1852 General Labourer-wharf & dock London Morselydown
Elizabeth Lyons Wife Married Female 57 1854 Nil London Morselydown
Josephine Lyons Daughter Single Female 23 1888 Milliner London Bermondsey

 

1911c-tslyons

There were 2 other separate family units living in 3 Marcia Road: a family of 3 Garrard [1 a baby] in 1 room, and a couple, Winegarden, in 1 room front, he a Leather dresser from Austria with an English wife

1915. Youngest daughter, Elizabeth Lyons, marries John Allen on 13/9/1915 in Southwark Register Office. [They are living with William Lyons by 1918; no Electoral Roll Books exist 1916/7]. He, Timothy, is given as a Cranedriver.

1916. Eldest daughter, Helen Lyons, marries in a Catholic Chuch in Holborn.. He, Timothy, given as a leather salesman

1919. Middle daughter, Mary Josephine Lyons, marries in his church, the English Martyrs, Walworth. He, Timothy, given as Wharfingers Warehouseman.

Timothy Stephen Lyons[ another appearance of Stephen as a middle name!, although he has become Timothy S Lyons in 1901 & 1911censuses] appears at 3 Marcia Road in the twice yearly Electoral Roll books from 1909-10 onwards, until Spring 1924 when it is just Elizabeth Lyons. Her brother, David [Dobin- presumably a writing error], appears with them in Spring,1921[ but in 1911C is probably in Belmont Workhouse] . Rose & JWA Burkmar, and Lilian Haley are also living there from 1921 to 1930 and 1924 respectively.[do not think any of these were servants: the 1911C entry is above and only the 3 of them in the household]

By Autumn 1924, after Elizabeth’s death,  John & Elizabeth [1891,Lyons] Allen are also there [and also the Burkmars] and stay there up till the last Roll book prewar,1939-40. By the first postwar book, 1945, the Allens are no longer there [ The road did get bombed during the war, a V1 outside no. 58, but little physical damage done. Marcia Road has now been completely rebuilt, being demolished 1980s-1990s and then rebuilt on the original footprints , incorporating most of its previous Victorian design].

1923. Timothy Lyons dies 10/12/1923 at 3 Marcia Road , aged 71, a Tea Warehouseman. Cause of Death: 1, Bronchitis. 2, Cerebral Hoemorhage. Informant on the death certificate was H. Blackmore (the now married daughter Helen) of 47 Darville Road, Stoke Newington. Seemingly no Will [Ancestry National probate records], whereas his widow left one 3 months later.

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Below the burial entry  on 13/12/1923 from the Church of the English Martyrs, burial in Leytonstone Cemetery. The undertaker was W. ?Knox, 11 Old Kent Road

timothy lyons death

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Note: Peter Hunter Gillespie was an Insurance Broker, aged 44 in 1911C, living with family and a servant in 8 rooms at 78 Blenheim Gardens, Willesden, NW.: presumably William John wrote his name on Timothy's funeral card when he died , aged 65, Willesden Mar 1932- maybe Gillespie was also an acquaintance of his father's. Thus the above card must have been rescued from the debris of 9 Kenton Gardens in 1944.

1924. His widow Elizabeth Lyons dies 4/03/1924, aged 69, also at 3 Marcia Road, Bermondsey. Cause of Death: 1. Bronchitis. 2. Cerebralapoplecy Coma. Informant was E.Allen (the now married daughter Elizabeth), also by now living at 3, Marcia Road. Elizabeth Lyons did leave a will, effects of £27, Elizabeth Allen being the executor & recipient: was this will to stop some of her children sharing in this small amount??

 

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elizabeth Tobin-probate

Also possess  burial entry on 10/03/1924 from the Church of the English Martyrs, burial in Leytonstone Cemetery. No graves have survived but the grave numbers are known: Timothy Lyons Grave 24, Row 13, Plot 11B. Elizabeth Lyons Grave 30, Row 14, Plot 11B.

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The above funeral card, and the one above for Timothy, somehow survived the 1944 destruction of her son's Kenton House  

Could not find the deeds for 10 or 21 Darwin Street, nor for 3 Marcia Road ,nor mention of T/W.J. Lyons in the Southwark Local History Deeds. he obviously did not own the house, but was just renting 3 rooms, on one floor, the ground, I assume.

.Summary of places Elizabeth Tobin/ Lyons lived.

(These dates known from b.c, censuses, death certificates for Margaret & Stephen & birth certificates of Stephen, William, Helen, E. M. Josephine, & Elizabeth & m.cs of Margaret Tobin, Ellen Lyons & Elizabeth Lyons)

 

 

Lyons Index