Harriett Turner ~1872-1949

Had correspondence with an Angela Thymm in 2014, and again in 2021, but no further forward!

Windsor given as her birth place in 1881C & 1901C But, according to Terry Gunn, 1933 son of 1896 Dick Gunn, she and her brother Charles came over from Ireland to Liverpool and worked their way south- first thoughts are that this is certainly wrong, but will mull over the evidence! 01273 492795

1872. An Ellen Harriett Turner is born Sunninghill, Berks on 4/9/1872 to John Turner, general labourer, & Caroline, nee Boylett .Bmd ref: Windsor, Sep 1872: puchased this cert.,but

Seemingly no other Bmd entry for her as Harriet/Harriett Windsor - one Dec 1873 Henley but this over 10 m from Windsor. Maybe a possibility But there is a Harriett Turner b.1874 in the 1891C, born Henley, with widowed father, John, and a brother Charles, born 1876 , also born Henley!

A Harriett Fanny Turner is registered 1872 Ashford Kent. This is NOT her- baptism record is on FMP , father is Bernard Turner.

1881C. A Harriett Turner, 9, b. Windsor is living 11 Barwicks Alley Charlton near Dover with parents Charles & Kate . Can not find her b.c

The only reason I think I have the correct Harriett here is the fact that she is given as born Windsor, like our Harriett in the 1901C . Is this proof enough? Have searched the 1891C and cannot find a Harriett or a Turner born around Windsor

TURNER, Charles	Head	Married	M	25	1856	Frame Maker	London, London, Middlesex
TURNER, Kate	Wife	Married	F	26	1855		Newport, Isle of Wight, Hampshire
TURNER, Harriett	Daughter	Single	F	9	1872		Windsor, Berkshire
TURNER, Catherine	Daughter	Single	F	4	1877		London, London, Middlesex
TURNER, Charles	Son	Single	M	2	1879		Chatham, Kent

2 births Medway Mar 1879 for Charles Turner, one Charles Turner, the other Charles Frederick Turner - Medway includes Chatham . The plain Charles Turner b.c. ref. 02a.517 should give us Kate's maiden name . Charles F Turner 12 b. Rochester, is in 1891C as son of Charles, gardener, b. Rochester, & Ann

Many Ancestry trees suggest that Charles Turner 1856 was Charles Louis Turner, whose ancestors can be traced_ this is Incorrect as he is in the 1881C with the wife Elizabeth who is with him in the 1891C . He is also in 1911C

1879. A Charles Turner was born 15/11/1879 to a Catherine Turner, no father given, in the Union Workhouse Chatham. I am almost 100% sure that this Charles Turner is the 2 year old who appears with Harriett's family in the 1881C shown above. In which case, Charles & Kate were not married. But was Catherine just using the Turner surname for respectability! or was she born as Catherine Turner??? Eureka! - a Catherine Turner was born on the Isle of Wight Sep 1856 2b 411. But then I cannot find her in 1861 nor 1871 C and there is indeed a death of a 4week old Catherine Ann Turner Sep 1856 Isle of Wight - so no more feeling of euphoria!

Another question- are there any Chatham Union Workhouse records, entry, discharge etc - available in a Kent library??

Seemingly cannot buy the 1877 b.c for sister Catherine Turner, as no obvious bmd entry London, Mddx!!- just one Jun 1877 Whitechapel, whcih was on the border Mddx-London: a possibility- no baptism for her in Ancestry Lonon Baptisms . But angelaj66 does have an Ancestry public member tree with the 3 siblings on, and with Charles Joseph Turner 1879 -1959, living 41 Ivory Place Brighton on 14/9/1905 and being a flower hawker : this would suggest he either married a Margaret Ball then, or had a child then- he actually married Margaret Ball Mar 1902 so this event must be a birth [ it could have also been his wife's death, but not on Bmd, so no] - contacted her 26/7/2014. This birth - from another tree of Angela's - is of Catherine Winifred Turner. There is a death Lewisham for a plain Charles Turner Mar 1959, aged 80. Think Angela is descendant of Charles T Phillips who married Annie Gunn Mar 1917 Brighton. Charles Turner is not listed living 1-15 Ivory Place in 1911C!- cannot find the family anywhere in 1911C!

Another Charles Turner, 1879, married Emma Sheppard 1904 in Brampton, Derbyshire - his father also Charles Turner

Charles Joseph Turner, 22, b. Chatham Kent, unmarried, rag & bone collector, is in Lewes prison in 1901C . In 1911C?? -a Charles Turner, b.Chatham, 1876 is living with wife Annie in Chatham: this couple also in 1901C.

1939 Register: cannot find Charles or Margaret Turner, though they would appear to die in Sydenham in 1959 & 1969 respectively

in 1881C, another Ellen H Turner, 8, is living Yew Tree Cottage, Sunninghill with parents John, 57, gardener labourer, & Caroline, 51, & siblings Kate, 27, Harry, 25, & Mark 13- all born Sunninghill. She is the Ellen Harriett Turner whose b.c. I have

Mother Kate Turner could die W. Ashford, aged 36, Dec 1888 . Several possibilities for a death of father Charles 1881-1891

1891C Concerning our erroneous family, there is a Kate Turner 37, b.Ascot ? cook but single!, with Ellen Harriett Turner 18 b. Sunningdale 18 servant in Westminster. Kate is the elder sister shown on the 1881C . Also an Alice Turner 33 b.Ascot -she another sister away from home in 1881C

But where is our Windsor Harriett??. cannot find anyone of the Charles, Kate, Harriett, Catherine, Charles family in 1891C. But there is a Harriot Turner, 19, gen servant, b. Abingdon, Berks, living Eastbourne: this could possibly be she. But Abingdon ~ 40-60-k from Windsor!

~1894. Harriett Turner lives as the 'wife' of Charles Edward Gunn, he having married in 1889, in Brighton and then has 10 children with him. She never married him legally

Family lore thought that their sons were registered with the name of Gunn, their daughters with the name of Turner, BUT, this is incorrect - all the children were registered as Turners!!

Charles Edward Gunn & Harriett had the following children: Annie Louise Turner Sep 1894- died 1987 Sussex, Charles Edward Turner Dec 1896, Richard Gunn Turner Dec 1898, John Thomas Turner 2/1/1901, Harry Turner Jun 1903, Frederick Turner Mar 1906, Arthur Turner 19/8/1908 and seemingly 3 more after March 1911: Ellen G (Nellie) Turner born Sep 1912, Kathleen [Kitty] Turner Sep 1914 & Joseph G [Joey] Turner Sep 7/8/1917

I am in email contact with Matt Gunn, son of Terry Gunn 1933, son of Richard Gunn 1898 . Have spoken to Terry by phone

Harriett seemingly could not write. Phillipps family Tree- Ancestry- has Annie Gunn 10/10/1894/5, exact date in 1895 given on her d.c- but must be wrong - , marrying Charles T Phillipps in 1917, children Charles A 1917, Kathleen H 1919 & Percival E 1921, tree owner descended from Charles A Phillipps 1917, Annie dying 1987 . Chapman Family tree has descendants of Percival E Phillipps 1920-1987 . Vic recalls Auntie Annie Phillipps and they lived in Eastleigh. He doesn't recall going to see them, but thinks Bobby might well have done so as a young man. Gaynor has asked Chris Gunn to ask Bobby. Annie certainly lived to a good age.

1901C Harriett Gunn, 28, b.Windsor, flower seller, is living at 29 High Street Brighton with her 'husband' & 4 children. They have all been registered as Turners, with no father given- at least in the case of John Thomas Turner 1901.

GUNN,CharlesEdward	Head	Married	M	30	1871	Commercial Porter	Brighton, Sussex
GUNN, Harriett	Wife	Married	F	28	1873	Flower Seller	Windsor, Buckinghamshire
GUNN, Charles Edward	Son		M	4	1897		Brighton, Sussex
GUNN, Annie	Daughter		F	6	1895		Brighton, Sussex
GUNN, Richard	Son		M	2	1899		Brighton, Sussex
GUNN, John	Son		M	0 (2 MOS)	1901		Brighton, Sussex
MOORE, Alice	Servant	Single	F	15	1886	General Servant (Domestic)	Brighton, Sussex

"Harriett started selling flowers outside Hanningtons the big departmental store in Brighton. That's how she became to be so well-known."

1905. Her married brother Charles Turner was living 41 Ivory Place on 14/9/1905 and was a Flower Hawker - Angela66 Ancestry Family tree . His daughter Catherine Winnifred Turner was born then.- from Angelaj66 Ancestry tree: she last logged in over a year ago and I have had no reply to 2 messages . She married William J Baldwin and they had Joseph L Baldwin 1927, Sydenham,-1988. Cannot find any member of this Turner family in 1911C!!

1939 Register. A Charles Turner, born 12/11/187, a patient/ housekeeper in a hospital in Step Southwood Mid Warberry Road, Torquay

Charles

Turner

Patient

12 Nov 1878

Male

Housekeeper

Married

1911C. Harriett Gunn, 37, b.Brighton- incorrect! , florist, is living 12 Ivory Place Brighton with her 'husband' & 6 children

GUNN, Charles Edward	Head	Married18 years	M	40	1871	Commercial Traveller's Porter	Brighton Sussex
GUNN, Harriet	Wife	Married	F	37	1874	Florist	Brighton Sussex
GUNN, Annie	Daughter	Single	F	16	1895	General Servant Domestic	Brighton Sussex
GUNN, Dick	Son		M	12	1899	School	Brighton Sussex
GUNN, Robert	Son		M	10	1901	School	Brighton Sussex
GUNN, Harry	Son		M	8	1903	School	Brighton Sussex
GUNN, Fred	Son		M	6	1905	School	Brighton Sussex
GUNN, Arthur	Son		M	3	1908	School	Brighton Sussex
MOORE, Alice	Servant	Single	F	25	1886	General Servant Domestic	Brighton Sussex

1939. Harriett Gunn,, born 15/12/1872, is living 48 Manor Hill, Brighton , still with Alice, who now calls herself Alice Powell- after her son George Powell 1905, he named after her stepbrother

From Chris Gunn, Bobby's wife: "The stories I have got from Bob is that he used to push the flower barrow to the Old Steine while Harriet got the bus and selling flowers on the way. she also had grandchildren mind the "store" while she saw a man about a dog, which translates to The man being the pub and the dog being the alcohol, sometimes the bus home would stop outside her house because she was too unsteady on her feet to walk from the bus stop".

These wondrous photos sent to me 2/9/2014 by Roy Grant: they are taken from a Brighton Bygones site: http://www.bygones.org.uk/page_id__140_img__576.aspx

1949. Harriett Gunn died, aged 76, 24/11/1949 at 45 Manor Hill, Brigton . - this would give her born 1873. She died of a. cardio vasc degeneration , b. diabetes. She was given as the widow of Charles Edward Gunn, commercial traveller's porter. The informant was J T R Gunn, in attendance, of 14 Maresfield Road, Brighton

Interesting that this certificate does not give her as a Flower seller- sign of the times? Or had she retired?

Her legacy still continues three generations on with a flourishing florist business; Guun's Florist is at 19 Sydney Street and at the Old Steine in Brighton. Today run by her great-grandchildren (descendants of her son Richard (Uncle Dick), the second son of Charles Edward Gunn and Harriett Turner- now his grandson Matthew). But she herself did not found this shop

"Established in 1875, Gunns Florist has many years experience as a high quality Florists. Gunns provide flower delivery services, funeral tributes and boxed plants to customers in Brighton and the surrounding areas. The company is located in Brighton's vibrant North Laines on Sydney Street.

Established in 1875 is written on their shopfront - so who established it? Not obviously- as according to family legend- Richard 1896. 1881C has just an estate agent , William Fenner, living at 19 Sydney Street. 1891C just a John Pealling, draper, there. 1901C has a Gas fitter, a general assistant and an ironmongers assistant there. 1911C seemingly not analysed by street on FMP. "Gunn’s Florist was formerly the workplace of an ‘artist in paper flowers’"; from mhms, message sent to them 2/9/2014. Did Harriett get the idea of hawking flowers when she first met up with her 'husband' Charles Edward Gunn ~ 1894, and then her son, Richard either took over a shop from other relatives or established it himself 1910-1920. Supposedly a picture of Harriett hanging up in the shop!!

12/1/2014 - I am in email contact with Matt Gunn, son of Terry Gunn, son of Richard Gunn 1898

7a. Gunns and Roses

Harriet Gunn sold flowers on the streets of Brighton for over 60 years. She was a well-known character whose patch outside Hannington's in East Street was bombed in 1940. This did not put her off, though, as she said at the time: "I ain't going to move from my corner for Hitler nor anybody else. You just got to die once my duck. I'll be sitting here a long time after Hitler and his bunch are finished". And she was!

Harriet had eleven children (and adopted one more) and lived in Ivory Place where most of her neighbours were fishing families. Not only did Harriet cook for all her neighbours, but each day she would bring a salt beef sandwich to the Italian musicians who regularly played nearby. Frederick Alexander played the harp and the violinist was Joseph Marcantonio. In the 20s, when the council had thrown them off the streets for busking, Samuel and Charles Hannington had given permission for the pair to play outside their store, next to Harriet. They also regularly played on board the paddle steamers Devonia and Waverley, where they were joined by a third musician who played the cello. The paddle-steamers used to do cruises (IoW, Eastbourne etc) and called on both the piers in Brighton. All 3 musicians played outside Harriet Gunn's window at 48 Manor Hill in the days leading up to her death in November 1949. They also played at her funeral. She was 76.

Harriett	Gunn	15 Dec 1872	Female	Unpaid Domestic D	Widowed	120	1
	Alice	Powell	01 Jun 1885	Female	Unpaid Domestic D	-	120	2
	Arthur	Gunn	19 Aug 1908	Male	Assistant Cook	Widowed	120	4
	Joseph	Gunn	07 Aug 1917	Male	Soldier	Single